First of all, let it be said that I've always thought the correct term is 'thaw'.. and that 'unthaw' is totally incorrect. After hearing the word 'unthaw' used over and over again, I decided to start polling people at home and at work. I happily discovered most people agreed 'thaw' is the correct word, even if they were guilty of using 'unthaw' themselves. There were a few, however, that argued 'unthaw' meant the same thing as 'thaw'. This debate took me to Google.
Here is what the online Oxford dictionary has to say:
Definition of unthaw:
verb
- 2 (as adjective unthawed) still frozen: you can cook prawns from frozen by plunging them, unthawed, into boiling water.
Logically, the verb unthaw should mean ‘freeze’, but in North America it means exactly the same as thaw (as in the warm weather helped unthaw the rail lines); because of the risk of confusion it is not part of standard usage. Unthawed as an adjective always means ‘still frozen’, but it is best avoided because many contexts may be ambiguous, such as use frozen (unthawed) blueberries.
I also use RhymeZone, an online tool, for looking up the meanings of words, synonyms, etc.
This is what RhymeZone has to say:
Definitions of unthaw:
verb: become or cause to become soft or liquid
As you can imagine, I only became more frustrated after finding these two examples to be contradicting to my understanding of the word.... so I pulled out the old hardcover dictionary. In my old dictionary, the word 'unthaw' did not exist. Furthermore, after checking packages in my freezer, I was only able to find the word 'thaw', not 'unthaw' on the package directions. This makes me think that the word 'unthaw' is one of those words that has been socially accepted into our lazy language.
This is what Miriam Websters online version (because I'm lazy and it's easier to copy/paste rather than type it all out) has to say about the prefix un:
Definition of UN-
1
: not : in-, non- —in adjectives formed from adjectives <unambitious> <unskilled> or participles <undressed>, in nouns formed from nouns <unavailability>, and rarely in verbs formed from verbs <unbe> —sometimes in words that have a meaning that merely negates that of the base word and are thereby distinguished from words that prefix in- or a variant of it (as im-) to the same base word and have a meaning positively opposite to that of the base word <unartistic> <unmoral>
2
: opposite of : contrary to —in adjectives formed from adjectives <unconstitutional> <ungraceful> <unmannered> or participles <unbelieving> and in nouns formed from nouns <unrest>
Still confused? Try putting the prefix UN in front of any word and use it in a sentence and decide which works best...
Examples:
#1. (fold) If you 'fold' the laundry-and 'unfold' the laundry... is it the same thing?
#2. (tie) If you 'tie' your shoes-and 'untie' your shoes... is it the same?
#3. (cooked) If your meal is 'cooked'... is it the same as 'uncooked'?
and my favorite...
#4. (faithful) If you promise to be 'faithful' to your spouse, will they understand if you tell them you've been 'unfaithful'?
My conclusion: If you take a turkey from the freezer, you are 'thawing' it. What are your thoughts?
Regardless of the word "unthawed" being used to mean unfreezing or not, it is no more proper than is unfold the clothes or unmow the lawn. It is UNnecessary.
ReplyDeleteExactly! Just because a word has become 'accepted' doesn't make it 'proper'.
DeleteLook up Unthaw in Merriam Webster, and you will see their argument as to why unthaw can be used interchangeably with thaw. The use has persisted for 4 centuries in both the US and Great Britain. That's what they call evolution of language.
DeleteYour prickish nature, OP, is what is UNnecessary.
DeleteDisagree!
ReplyDeleteThere IS a place to use unthawed:
"Hence errors became like glaciers, or ice-bergs in the frozen ocean, unthawed by summer, and growing from the fresh deposits of each returning winter."
Samuel Taylor Coleridge - 1853
Coleridge used "unthawed" correctly here, as in, those glaciers do not melt in the summer, and continue to grow with each returning winter.
DeleteCorrect; the appositive "unthawed by summer" in Coleridge's sentence does not refer to the errors disappearing and reappearing. Rather, as shown by the participial following the appositive, the idea Coleridge is aiming for is that the errors are eternal and impossible to destroy. The errors, then, are not thawed (or "unthawed") by summer only to be reaffirmed by winter; no, they are unthawed (not thawed) by winter.
DeleteHowever, perhaps with the consistent global warming of grammar nazis, we can indeed melt a whole plethora of ancient and deeply ingrained cultural language-slaughterings, and errors such as "unthawed" will, in fact, be thawed.
Also, language-slaughterings is a new adjective. You heard it here first. ;)
I would agree whole-heartedly. At times when you need to write "proper" English, such as scientific papers, legal essays, contracts and the like, I presume, by all means use the word "thaw" if you wish. The words are written and can be edited to save* the most confusion.
ReplyDeleteBut when others use the word as a verb, in casual, general or other forms of personal conversation, one should be astute enough to validate what they say rather than purposely look confused and deny any understanding.
Word for word, there is always a point where "accepted" frequently used words are brought in as "proper." Certainly, I think using the word "cool" to mean "having interesting taste" instead of "cold" and "gay" to mean homosexual rather than "happy" for instance. These words among thousands I'm sure are considered "proper" though they've only been used in some form or another as long as "unthaw" has, for at least 70 years.
Before going further though, we should define what we think is the meaning of "proper English". That's less defined by words or definition in a book, but more about accepted standards of a society or group at the time. British English, for instance would not consider "inflammable" as proper, though in America, we would accept it as an alternate (though confusing) form of "flammable".
We could discuss the word "peel" as an interesting example. When we peel an orange, we remove the peeling. When we unpeel an orange, we remove the orange of it's peel. Neither are opposites of each other. Yet, we would equally agree that words like "clothe" and "unclothe" have opposing action.
As "unthaw" has no opposite as a verb but has only be an adjective to mean not yet thawed or still frozen there is no confusion when used in context.
I think there are only a few "un-" words that are frequently used enough which then also give reason to accept their use as proper exceptions rather than a rampant misuse of just putting "un" in front of verbs. The only three I can think of are "unthaw", "unpeel" and "unloosen" at the moment. The logic of unpeel was discussed. The other two, certainly having been used for decades are part of the American nomenclature, have no reason not to be accepted and "proper".
* save - So should a word which has two meanings opposite of each other be used at all? "Save" means both "to retain as a part of" as well as "to exclude from." Would this dilemma be reason to omit it altogether ss a commonly used word. Of course not, as this would always depend on it's use and it's definition based on context. No different than "unthaw" and "thaw" to have the same meaning would be just fine to use interchangeably, irregardless [wink wink] of personal opinion.
"unpeel" aside (I personally have never heard that word used before now) I think regardless of a word or phrase being "understood" OR "proper" one must only look at the word(s) in their simplest form; "un"-meaning to reverse or remove a state, and then the word that follows, be it loose, fold, thaw, etc. Therefore if you "un" something you take away that which you are describing. Some of the examples that you've given make little or no sense to me as they are not used in the same manner. I would argue that your ending statement does not even compute. While the word "save" can indeed have two meanings, a more appropriate comparison would have been "save" and "unsave" which clearly have opposite meanings...as do thaw and unthawed.
DeleteI totally agree with you! It drives me nuts to see people using words that are just now "socially acceptable" and are not actually proper. Another one of my favorites to get riled about is the use of "irregardless"....what??? I don't like the usage of "busted" when the actual term should be broken either. It is just lazy people being lazy with their language and grammar.
ReplyDeleteMore important than the instant question is, "Does it really matter?" It does--greatly--and George Orwell explains why:
ReplyDelete"A man may take to drink because he feels himself to be a failure, and then fail all the more completely because he drinks. It is rather the same thing that is happening to the English language. It becomes ugly and inaccurate because our thoughts are foolish, but the slovenliness of our language makes it easier for us to have foolish thoughts. The point is that the process is reversible. Modern English, especially written English, is full of bad habits which spread by imitation and which can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. If one gets rid of these habits one can think more clearly, and to think clearly is a necessary first step toward political regeneration: so that the fight against bad English is not frivolous and is not the exclusive concern of professional writers."
Sharon, I quite agree, too. The most recent example in my world is the use, most often by newspaper writers, of 'reticent' as a synonym for 'reluctant.' The acceptance of that misuse leaves us not only of the bastardizing of the word, but also the lack of a replacement that succinctly captures its precision.
I'd like to think words like 'busted' or 'cuss' became acceptable spellings and usage in American English because of the differences in pronunciation from one region to another. 'burst' as stated by someone with a deep southern accent might sound more like 'bust' and the same with 'curse' and 'cuss'. Keep in mind that some historians have stated most colonists before the American Revolution likely sounded like many southerners do today.
ReplyDeleteYeah it sounds like you all are simply arbitrary and fallacious: English is a Natural Language (Look up the definition and learn something before talking condescendingly to people about things you obviously have not studied), natural languages evolve alongside society. i.e. What society at large accepts as our language = proper language. The fallacies here are humorous in a sad way because some of you speak in way that entails you think superficial trappings like "proper" speech actually dictate character or intelligence, the irony being you probably feel like you are using "proper" English and yet sound like (for lack of a better word) simpletons. 59* gave illuminating examples, and it seems you all still failed to see your erroneous thinking. Online dictionaries (which are continually updated) gave you proof, albeit conditional (qualifying it with North American), and you still gave an opinion on a matter of fact. Lastly for the fellow/lass who used an fallacious appeal to authority (George Orwell) and appeal to anecdote, perhaps it is you, who is unable to think clearly without a clear arrogant bias.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI tentatively agree with Mr. Tanner. While his argument contains excessive vitriol, use of parentheses and more forms of the word "fallacious" than I would have used, his point is valid, nonetheless.
DeletePeople should relax. Proper grammar and word usage is important. It is not, however, something that should be used to judge or separate us. If you are using someone's misuse of English as a tool to shun them, that makes you a tool.
There were so many detractors for the word "ain't". "Ain't ain't a word" was the phrase a few years ago. Now, whether you like it or not, "ain't" is a word. Argue with the dictionary if you must but keep your judgement to yourself. There are those who do not take kindly to being judged and being pretentious might get you punched in the fucking face. As it happens, will you be thinking,"This isn't proper behavior."?
Focus on something that is worthwhile. Now that you know what this word means and the different meanings it can have, move on. There are bigger fish to fry. Ones that don't make people sound like such suck up pricks.
Delete
Thank you Drew
DeleteJust like they were teaching my daughter in Pennsylvania to say "so don't i" when agreeing with someone saying that they do or do not like something
ReplyDeleteI once use the word RAVEL in Scrabble. It was challenged and I removed it as we didn't have a dictionary handy. Later I looked it up and RAVEL and UNRAVEL mean the same thing ( I could have won - I'm still mad about this....)
ReplyDeleteUnthaw is NOT listed at www.dictionary.com. However, perhaps it should be... To unthaw the turkey would be to freeze it, right!? You thawed it but then changed your mind about using it, so you put it back in the freezer to unthaw it. (kidding - "unthaw" is just plain wrong and I roll my eyes every time I hear someone saying it.
ReplyDeleteSorry other Anonymous above, but www.dictionary.com has this entry:
ReplyDeleteunthaw
v.
1590s, from un- (2) "opposite of" + thaw (v.). Related: Unthawed ; unthawing.
Online Etymology Dictionary, © 2010 Douglas Harper
They, www.dictionary.com, give a contradictory and therefore confusing definition.
Now, www.thesaurus.com, does have no results for unthaw.
Btw, unthaw has a red squiggly line underneath it as I type it into Firefox. The suggested replacement by Firefox is thaw.
Look that up in you Funk & Wagnalls. Lol!
Ask your hot water heater.
ReplyDeleteThis from Popular Science: "To get inside the Iceman’s stomach, the team first had to unthaw him."
ReplyDeletehttp://www.popsci.com/icemans-gut-microbes-reveal-clues-early-human-geography?dom=prime&src=syn
As a being a refrigeration tech for 28yrs I cringe when I hear someone say when will the product unthaw in the freezer while I'm working on it then I find myself replying in the terms of that's what I'm trying to do unthaw it not thaw it and I'm certainly not unrepairing it am I, must be the tech genes in me to over analyze words and meaning.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading all this it seems you are one of those pedantic people who had to research endlessly until you justified your belief. Many words have correct but different usage in different regions. Oxford is right. Unthaw is the same as thaw because it is accepted usage in North America. Inflammable and flammable and inhabitable and habitable have coexisted in our language for decades. None of these are examples of using a lazy form for English.
ReplyDelete"Unthaw is the same as thaw because it is accepted usage in North America." ?? As you can see, it is not "accepted usage in North America" because, here we are, NOT accepting it. Therefore, unless you have proven unanimous support for the usage of the word "UNTHAW", which you do not, because I, for one, am a North American who REJECTS the stupidity of the word UNTHAW. Acceptable words are one's that CLARIFY, not muddy, communication. Sure, other words can change and evolve and, I'm not saying we should be narrow-minded, but UNTHAW is illogical and self-contradictory. So, no, UNthaw is not the same as thaw and it is NOT accepted language in North America -- says who? I do not ever remember a referendum being taken on that idiotic word. I am not judging. I am guilty of using the word unthaw -- until, thankfully, one of my bosses corrected me many years ago. As an editor for a magazine for highly educated politicians, my boss refused to let me use that word. That was many years ago and today, I still shudder with embarrassment.
DeleteThat's nice and dandy for you, but the fine people who publish dictionaries HAVE accepted it, and they are far more of recognized experts on the matter than, say, random internet user PearlyQ. Your pedantic hatred of a word that has been used for 4 centuries is on you. I would wager that you also hate regional colloquialisms like "y'all" and "yinz". Hint, here in the future, where we are trying to be gender inclusive, y'all has somehow become the favored word to use. Who knows what your feelings are on the singular they pronoun.
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